adaneth
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Post by adaneth on Oct 2, 2018 16:10:31 GMT -5
*snags for evening reading*
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Post by altariel on Oct 3, 2018 2:58:14 GMT -5
Great articles, Sian and Adaneth - thank you so much for posting these. Obviously I adored the Carter article, and I was really interested in his point that Faramir loses a battle when he follows Denethor's older strategy. I have often wondered precisely what Faramir wanted to do instead: I can't quite work it out, being useless at this kind of thing. I'm not sure the battle is winnable, or intended to be, and Denethor's strategy does buy enough time... I assume Faramir's strategy would have prioritised less loss of life? But "The old man would not so, and slew his son/And half the seed of Europe one by one." (Do you think she would have been satisfied with sexy funtimes if the Enemy had not been destroyed and her brother perished at the Black Gate? Well, maybe some on the side as she and Faramir led their band of desperate rebels, until the right moment for sacrifice came.) No indeed, Moonland sexy funtimes are a purely postwar offer, to persuade Eowyn to give up on her dreams of death and glory once the peace is won. I guess that before that the conversation goes more on the lines of: Eowyn: Death! Faramir: I am entirely behind the 'fight them on the beaches' strategy, when the time comes. In the meantime, could we sit here quietly and perhaps even chat about flowers? Eowyn: If we must. I said we had all been issued slightly different versions of the text
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Haarajot
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Post by Haarajot on Oct 3, 2018 5:07:20 GMT -5
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sian22
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Post by sian22 on Oct 3, 2018 9:34:45 GMT -5
Carter Mythlore 30 2012.docx (37.18 KB) This this again Haarajot.. it is a word doc version. If that doesn't work send me your email and I can send it directly....
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sian22
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Post by sian22 on Oct 3, 2018 9:43:37 GMT -5
adaneth said: (Do you think she would have been satisfied with sexy funtimes if the Enemy had not been destroyed and her brother perished at the Black Gate? Well, maybe some on the side as she and Faramir led their band of desperate rebels, until the right moment for sacrifice came.)
lol.. Anna has written a bit of a version of that with A Tight Space...
Altariel.. that is hilarious. 'chat about flowers'.. yup.. flowers fair and maidens fairer..never gets old to tease him with...
Nath has a v long running AU over at Many Paths to Tread in which the gambit fails and the many realms of ME have to fight essentially a guerrilla war against Sauron. Eowyn becomes Queen of Rohan and marries Elfhelm.. Faramir is on the run with a number of Gondor's finest..sneaking in and out of Pelargir etc to try to harry them as much as possible. If I remember Denethor is Steward. Cirdan even gets into the fight which is fun
I do think that once E and F met and that spark was created and they stood holding hands with the darkness rolling in and Eowyn worrying about what was to come-- the healing she found in that garden was already well underway and if it had all gone sideways they would have stayed a couple. Perhaps with her alone in Edoras..marshalling the defense of Rohan and he retreated into the White Mountains to harry the enemy and the infrequent get-togethers would be spectacular..
Not in Moonland clearly.. and not 'funtimes'..but glorious, rejuvenating stolen moments in between duty and resolve...
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Post by altariel on Oct 3, 2018 12:34:38 GMT -5
I do think that once E and F met and that spark was created and they stood holding hands with the darkness rolling in and Eowyn worrying about what was to come-- the healing she found in that garden was already well underway and if it had all gone sideways they would have stayed a couple. Perhaps with her alone in Edoras..marshalling the defense of Rohan and he retreated into the White Mountains to harry the enemy and the infrequent get-togethers would be spectacular.. Not in Moonland clearly.. and not 'funtimes'..but glorious, rejuvenating stolen moments in between duty and resolve... I don't know what it says about me, but I do find that terribly romantic. And thanks for the tip about the story by Nath, I always liked her style very much. That's a nice long read that will keep me busy. Haarajot - I very much enjoyed the Denethor essay: thank you. I've never seen that Rankin-Bass Return of the King.
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Haarajot
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Post by Haarajot on Oct 4, 2018 6:44:41 GMT -5
This this again Haarajot.. it is a word doc version. If that doesn't work send me your email and I can send it directly.... Got it, thanks! Will need to read later.
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Haarajot
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Post by Haarajot on Oct 4, 2018 6:51:14 GMT -5
Haarajot - I very much enjoyed the Denethor essay: thank you. I've never seen that Rankin-Bass Return of the King. Neither have I. I liked Daniel Stride's essay as well. There's one thing in it of which I have a different opinion. Tolkien writes about Denethor: 'Denethor loved her, in his fashion,' seems pretty damning to me, next to mentioning that he might have loved his older son more.
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adaneth
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Post by adaneth on Oct 4, 2018 7:42:35 GMT -5
Stephen Carter's analysis of the changing model of heroism An interested read, but using Aragorn as an exemplar of the heroic warrior/chivalric mode was an error, in my view. His argument would have been stronger if he simply contrasted Boromir and Faramir. (Estel/Thorongil/Strider/Aragorn/Elessar Telcontar is--as can be seen by his myriad names--a "monomyth" hero, with "divine" blood and striving to earn a wife as well as defeat the dark tyrant. Trying to analyze him in merely military terms would be a serious distortion of his role. Besides, was the Grey Company any less camouflaged than the Rangers of Ithilien?) I would quibble with his claim that World War I was unprecedented in the history of warfare: in fact, it was significantly prefigured by the Richmond-Petersburg campaign in the American Civil War, fifty years earlier. European military leaders, however, dismissed the lessons this awful episode might have taught, since they considered the United States a second-rate power, without the experience to manage such things properly. They were sure they could use the new technologies to better effect. Further, I was put out by "This compassion strays from the heroic model established by Aragorn and Éomer , who kill indiscriminately during wartime" (p. 98). We do not have equivalent situations involving all three men, so that we can compare their behavior on the same or similar bases. Where do we see Aragorn (or Éomer ) kill indiscriminately? I see the author is/was at the Citadel, but he appears to be working from a very narrow and ethnocentric view of "warrior culture," one based more in post-medieval Western conceptions of "ancient warriors" than in the reality of pre-modern/non-Western cultures. (Keegan's analysis of the Battle of Agincourt in The Face of Battle shows the "chivalric" ideal was highly variable by culture and tactical situation.) Of course, this Western view was what was in the heads of the men who fought the "Great Wars" of the 20th century. Tolkien, however, was not one of those going to the front with a copy of the Iliad in his pack, since he was already deep in the texts of Germanic and Finnish pre-modern cultures. This is what allowed to him portray and honor different styles of heroism and courage in his works, instead of promoting a single style as the One True Way. This respect for diversity is one of the things I love Tolkien for. Run out of time for now--back later!
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sian22
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Post by sian22 on Oct 4, 2018 15:51:54 GMT -5
That was Carter's point..that he did include different models for heroism.. Is not English-speaking Britain's 'Western perspective' founded on Germanic and Norse, with Roman-Greek fused into it? For my history and English literature high school classes, modeled on British curricula, we covered pre-Beowulf, and Celtic and Norse and Germanic,and Roman. I don't see how you make a distinction between' Western'-reading Illiad and German/Finnish mythology. The soldiers with a classics background would have come up through a private school system that taught them Mabinogion alongside Beowulf and the Sagas. Tolkien was different in that he had studied more of it, and more deeply, but his compatriots in Wiseman and Gilson, Bache-Smith etc were just as 'open'-minded. I didn't find indiscriminately put me out at all..the principal opponents Eomer and Aragorn faced in 'wartime' were Orcs and other 'tainted' creatures that they would kill on sight. Where ever and however they found them. There is no interrogating of them and Tolkien says specifically they are all killed. Of course Faramir does this also while he is engaged in battle. Choosing not to kill Frodo is a different matter...
I am now sure how you compare a campaign that killed 5300 soldiers with one that killed 40 million, military and civilians and involved dozens of countries..
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Post by altariel on Oct 5, 2018 5:36:14 GMT -5
Tolkien writes about Denethor: 'Denethor loved her, in his fashion,' seems pretty damning to me, next to mentioning that he might have loved his older son more. That's a real backhander, isn't it? One of those lines that you read and then think, "Hang on...!" Poor Denethor, I do think he's slightly set-up by the text. I always have the faintest feeling that if Pippin rather than Gandalf had done the talking at Rath Dinen, he might not have gone over the edge.
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Haarajot
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Post by Haarajot on Oct 5, 2018 6:33:07 GMT -5
Tolkien writes about Denethor: 'Denethor loved her, in his fashion,' seems pretty damning to me, next to mentioning that he might have loved his older son more. That's a real backhander, isn't it? One of those lines that you read and then think, "Hang on...!" Poor Denethor, I do think he's slightly set-up by the text. I always have the faintest feeling that if Pippin rather than Gandalf had done the talking at Rath Dinen, he might not have gone over the edge. I doubt that. Of course Denethor is set-up, in the narrative he had to go over the edge, for he could never have been Steward to the King, like Faramir would. In the same vein Théodred and Théoden had to die so Éomer, Aragorn's friend, could become king of Rohan. (Talking about (in)discrimate killing. According to Tolkien Boromir and Faramir looked much alike, but I think Faramir the gentler of the two and their mother was a gentle soul.
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adaneth
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Post by adaneth on Oct 5, 2018 8:45:24 GMT -5
a private school system that taught them Mabinogion alongside Beowulf and the Sagas Did it? I'm not a product of an Empire/Commonwealth system, but the impression I've received is that Celtic culture was still devalued when Tolkien was young, and that Greek and Latin were far more important than Anglo-Saxon for most students. I would be happy to be wrong! I think choosing not to kill Gollum is more telling. On that point, we know Aragorn was sorely tempted and had plenty of opportunity, yet kept Gollum alive. Eomer was fortunate to avoid the slinker, and the only comparable situation is when he might have killed Grima (but didn't). Because for the men in the trenches, the experience was equally horrific. There is a point where increasing the scale makes no significant difference to the individual. *white rabbits*
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Post by altariel on Oct 5, 2018 9:22:31 GMT -5
There's a fairly strong tradition of Celtic studies at Cambridge, leading to the foundation of ASNaC (department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic) in 1928. I don't know about Oxford... Hang on... Oh, this is worrying. Oldest tradition of Celtic studies in the UK, but the courses are currently under review: www.mod-langs.ox.ac.uk/celtic
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Post by altariel on Oct 5, 2018 9:26:04 GMT -5
In the same vein Théodred and Théoden had to die so Éomer, Aragorn's friend, could become king of Rohan. (Talking about (in)discrimate killing. Yes, there's a lot of handy regime change about, isn't there! According to Tolkien Boromir and Faramir looked much alike, but I think Faramir the gentler of the two and their mother was a gentle soul. I always thought that too. In my headcanon it's because Boromir is unlike Denethor that Denethor is so besotted with him. I also imagine Boromir as being very like Ecthelion, whose approval Denethor never quite feels he entirely has. (More headcanon.)
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