From The Silmarillion

[Deleted]

Just read this tonight. I was struck by the liturgical quality of it.

Fingon to his host when he heard the trumpets of Turgon from afar, Of the Fifth Battle, The Silmarillion, pg 190

Utúlie’n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie’n aurë!
The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!”

And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: 

Auta i lómë!
The night is passing

[sian22]

It is so lovely... and yes..it does feel rather elegaic

[Haarajot]

Sometimes when I read bible and find a familiar thing I wonder, if it is where Tolkien got it from. He uses many biblical themes.

[sian22]

yet it is interesting that when asked about it, he specifically disavowed those as influences... I will be curious to read John Garth's chapbook on Tolkien and Lewis--perhaps he felt the need to distance from the overt influences in the latter?

[Haarajot]

A few days ago I read at Martinez's xenite.org

Because J.R.R. Tolkien wrote that The Lord of the Rings is a “fundamentally Catholic work”

I found that quote in Letters, # 142

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. However that is very clumsily put, and sounds more self-important than I feel. For as a matter of fact, I have consciously planned very little

[sian22]

Ahah.. once again he revises his opinion then.. the comment I referred to above was referenced in Carpenter..
Your quote makes more sense Haarajot.. He may have had no overt worship in the societies, but so many details..like the standing silence, also have a reverence.

[gwynnyd]

The Athrabeth has a *lot* of religious, specifically Christian, parallels and deliberate non-parallels. They are contradictory and completely unresolved, of course, but we have this:

Finally, there is another isolated slip ('C'), again
taken from a document dated 1955, as follows:

Query: Is it not right to make Andreth refuse to discuss any
traditions or legends of the 'Fall'? Already it is (if inevitably) too like
a parody of Christianity. Any legend of the Fall would make it
completely so?

Originally instead of refusal to talk of it Andreth was made (under
pressure) to say something of this sort:
It is said that Melkor looked fair in ancient days, and that when
he had gained Men's love he blasphemed Eru, denying his existence
and claiming that he was the Lord, and Men assented and took him
as Lord and God. Thereupon (say some) our spirits having denied
their own true nature at once became darkened and weakened; and
through this weakness they lost the mastery of their bodies, which
fell into unhealth. Others say that Eru Himself spoke in wrath,
saying: 'If the Darkness be your god, little shall ye have here of Light
[later > on earth ye shall have little Light], and shall leave it soon
and come before Me to learn who lieth: your god or I who made
him.' And these are the most afraid of death.

Then he goes and writes *another* several thousand words on the nature of Men's Fall, which is very Christian in scope and tone.

Does anyone need an electronic copy of the ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH? I could send it if anyone needs one.



sort of a rant

The Fall is actually the one part of the legendarium that I have a lot of trouble with. As I am a not a believer in 'original sin', the thought of essentially infinite punishment for the finite crime of wanting knowledge more quickly when it was offered by what seemed like a god-like being who actually showed up and taught them things seems to be a major failure of imagination (though certainly understandable as Tolkien himself, as a good Catholic, could not conceive of a world without original sin in the background). I mean even if Men's "spirits having denied their own true nature at once became darkened and weakened; ....(and)... fell into unhealth." why would that *necessarily* condemn them and *every one of their descendants*, even those who *didn't* want "to deny their own true nature", to the darkness and weakness?

It's even worse if Eru darkened and weakened all Men forever in a mere snit because Men accepted a textbook on Arda from someone else and read ahead. The "I am a jealous god and you shall have no other gods before me" is very Old Testament - and, I have to point out, is NOT a commandment that was ever given to Men in Tolkien's universe. When Men did ask for help, Eru blew them off and told them to go find out everything for themselves. Eru left Men, basically like toddlers or children at this point without even proper *language*, alone to blunder around without guidance *even after Morgoth showed up to teach them*. Eru could have sent over a Valar or a Maiar or two on his side to teach Men things the 'right' way, but nooooo. As far as I can tell, Eru just stood back and let Men be corrupted without even a token attempt to stop it and then those Men and their descendants forever had to live short lives in darkness and weakness. Oops. Too bad, so sad for Men.

The narrative is that Eru ought to eventually come incarnate into Arda and show the way to 'redemption', an Arda Remade without Morgoth's marring - but tossing an Eru/Jesus into the mix would definitely make it an allegory and not a history.

/rant

I have to accept that this is just the way Tolkien's universe works, but it feels to me like a giant blind spot in an otherwise wonderfully coherent narrative. YMMV

[sian22]

Ooo Gwynnyd.. yes please I would love a copy..

And this part you wrote left me grinning and nodding:

'Eru left Men, basically like toddlers or children at this point without even proper *language*, alone to blunder around without guidance *even after Morgoth showed up to teach them*. Eru could have sent over a Valar or a Maiar or two on his side to teach Men things the 'right' way, but nooooo. As far as I can tell, Eru just stood back and let Men be corrupted without even a token attempt to stop it and then those Men and their descendants forever had to live short lives in darkness and weakness. Oops. Too bad, so sad for Men.'

The standoffishness and capricity of when Valar or Maiar intercede is one of the things that has always felt inconsistent to me. And the glimmers of "The Gift of the One to Men" being something the Eldar are, at times, jealous of, felt like throwing them a bone. As in: 'I've given you a shitty playpool but guess what?  You don't have to be in it for long" 

[gwynnyd]

Mar 1, 2019 10:36:06 GMT -5 sian22 said:

Ooo Gwynnyd.. yes please I would love a copy..

Sent. Check your email.

[sian22]

Ty!!!!

[gwynnyd]

Anyone who does not have a complete electronic set of LotR and the HoMe volumes, just let me know. I have them for the sharing.

[Haarajot]

Mar 1, 2019 17:05:27 GMT -5 gwynnyd said:

Anyone who does not have a complete electronic set of LotR and the HoMe volumes, just let me know. I have them for the sharing.

I already have them, thanks.